Last week, I pointed out how to get a free Experian credit score via Prosper. You can already get free credit reports from AnnualCreditReport.com as well as in other special situations. But what about services like daily credit score monitoring?
Now, a new site called CreditKarma is offering free daily credit scores. For comparison, FICO’s own Score Watch program costs $89.95 per year. So what’s the catch?
- It’s not a real FICO score. This is another FICO-clone, with a score ranging from 300 to 900. (FICO is from 300 to 850.) It also doesn’t say from which bureau this score is based upon, as they say they can pull from any of the big three (Experian, Equifax, Transunion). My guess is that they’ll use whatever is available that is both cheaper than FICO and still reasonably accurate. That’s what I would do…
- You only get the score. The service is pretty barebones. You don’t get information about who’s pulling your credit, how often they are doing it, or information about your existing credit lines. So the “alerts” feature is missing. Instead, the primary attraction is the ability to see trends – is your score increasing or decreasing over time?
- They are advertiser-supported, so I guess they are counting on people to obsessively check their score every day. I’ve always been a bit mystified by such behavior, but I don’t check the stock market ticker all day long either. From their privacy policy it seems that they are using your personal information to target ads to you, but aren’t actually sharing your info with others unless you opt-in. I sure hope not!
Security and Privacy Concerns
Okay, it’s free, so price isn’t a barrier to using this service. But it’s definitely wise to think twice before giving out personal information like my Social Security number to a start-up company. I read through their site, and didn’t see any glaring security holes. They use common third-party systems like ScanAlert Hacker Safe, TRUSTe, and Verisign. If you do notice something fishy, please share in the comments. The CEO will be reading, given that he’s the one that told me about this site.
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I signed up out of curiosity, and am a bit astonished at the score of 830, which is a good 60 points higher than my most recent FICO score, and 50-80 points higher than all of my FAKO’s. I’d say their scoring algorithm needs some work.
They say I am 683 but my Equifax last month was 708 from MYFICO.Com. And that is my lowest.
saladdin
It ‘s my belief that Credit Karma may be linked to trans union in a effort to scare people by misrepresenting your actual score. This then sends people into a frenzy, and you end up going to Trans union and paying the 29.00 dollar for and upgrade which shows your credit score 40-60 points, and sometimes more than what Credit Karma is reporting. This is a true fraud and I am beginning wonder if Trans Union is conspiring with Credit Karma.
I just tried mine and I got score of 857 ?? my Equifax showed score of 790 couple months ago.
It should be higher than FICO. The range is larger.
FICO: 300-850
CreditKarma: 300-900
Therefore, a FICO score should not be the same exact score in CreditKarma. FYI, I don’t work with/for CK so my statements are what I think is logical.
JB,
Who knows. Maybe they want the initial “WOW! My credit is that high??” before people realize the difference in range.
Or they just want to be different.
I tried it out. I thought it was pretty accurate. I don’t know why they wouldn’t make the range the same as FICO though? What’s the point of the extra 50 points?
No way guys. You’re saying my fico is really 633?
Sorry. Not even close.
saladdin
Is it a hard pull? or soft?
If you consider the karma score to be 6/5.5 th of FICO (ie 900-300 divided by 850-300), then a karma point is 0.92 FICO points. Naiserie’s 830 karma score becomes 761, and Kevin’s 857 karma score is 786 in FICO. But of course Saladdin’s score (626) makes no sense whatsoever.
I have no idea what my FICO is, but my karma score is 785 (720 FICO?). I’m curious how this calculation works out for others.
It is soft, as you are pulling your own credit score, and it’s not for a lender or credit line.
I would say my my CK score is well over 50 points above my official FICO, but I haven’t checked recently.
865!
Since you can get a free report from each of the three majors once a year and you can space them out so that you get an official report every 4 months I’m not sure what good this is other than alerting you to a potential problem if this fake score suddenly dips.
Thanks for the all the great feedback. We have every intention of publishing an equivalence table. Part of our beta objective was to observe how this score compares to other scoring methods.
Keep in mind that “scores” are somewhat arbitrary. Its the relative ranking and how your score changes over time that matters most. Also credit scores are non-linear meaning a simple .92 won’t work for everyone. I say this as a former statistician in the credit card industry.
We are working on an article that will address the other questions as well. Keep up the great discussion!
-Ken
On 1/28/08, my CK score is 875 and I have $68,000 out on one credit card at 0% (currently residing at FNBO direct). I last checked my True FICO score (via Equifax) on 4/3/07 and hade a score of 759. At that time I had about $57,000 out on a different credit card (at 0% of course). I made my last payment on my student loan 41 days ago – I don’t know if completing payment on that type of loan significantly increases a credit score… Besides the CC debt, I have $75,000 left on my mortgage and $9,000 out on a 0% auto loan. The sum of my credit card limits (I have 8 cards) is currently $182,250.
anyone else having trouble getting the account confirmation code email?
704 for me. This is the same score i got thru experian.
Dear, CK Founder. Have them check the confirmation email sending script. I tried for two members of my household already with different emails and none came. There are no junk filters. Cannot be a coincidence. Thanks
Well, it was fun, but I wish I knew how it relates to an actual score.
Since 894? Not a real score.
But nice for my ego 😉
@ Ken – you can get a free report every year (or every 4 months if you spread them out) but not a free score. Just the report.
Which is why I tried this. Too cheap to pay for my score since I know it is good and have no reason to know it exactly other than curiousity.
But 894 just tells me my score is high, which I already knew. lol
Well it took several hours to receive the comfirmation email.
The score was 694 , last time i check my Equifax score it was 710.
Not bad for a free service.
Here is a little explanation of credit scores and the differences:
http://www.creditkarma.com/article/differentscores
We will try to publish distributions as soon as we get other code finished. Please feel to commit.
i got 666 (lol). do you guys think this is normal for a very young person who only owns one cc? never had any balances and i don’t have debt… i pay everything on time and i hope to build a good score.
CK Founder – It should be a roughly linear conversion, such as 0.92, because you are looking for the conversion factor between two (presumably) similar non-linear relationships. Unless you are using a completely different algorithm to calculate the CK scores than the credit reporting agencies use to report Beacon or FICO scores, a simple conversion factor should suffice for most people.
Also, to get a true reading of how the score would translate to a FICO score, subtract 300 points from your CK score, multiply that number by 0.92, and then add 300 points to the result. This is due to the fact that everybody attains a score of at least 300 in both systems, so the first 300 points are not subject to the conversion factor.
I had a problem with the confirmation Email too. I run my own mail server and it filters out Emails coming from an IP address that does not reverse resolve (64.38.7.155)
According to WaMu my credit score was 730. Therefore 730/850=85%, and Credit Karma is 807/900=89%. Pretty close.
we’ll see. Using Naveen’s conversion mine would be 806 not 850. Normally my Equifax Fico is around 779. 769 average Credco when I purchased my home last September. I’ve never been at 800 much less 850.
Also according to Suzy there are 3 FICO’s from each of the 3 bureaus.
Not one
Wouldn’t work for me. I think that since i had an ID theft alert put on my accounts with all three credit bureaus they may not be able to pull my info.
CK Founder,
When you said that the .92 conversion won’t work, are you saying this because you use other factors (or the same factors in different percentages) than FICO to achieve the score.
If not, then Naveen’s statistic should give accurate results.
This is just speculation on my part, but I think there will be legal issues if you make direct comparisons to FICO. Each credit score formula is based on tons of different actuarial data about delinquencies and for what scenario (car, credit card, mortgage), so there is no way there will be a 1-to-1 mapping of two different scores. FICO would probably sue if you said “Our 825 is the same as a 745 on FICO”.
“I’ve always been a bit mystified by such behavior”
You say you’re mystified by people checking their faux FICO everyday?
You blog about your finances daily and keep an actual tally for yourself and others! Don’t you think that might be sort of similar?
Sure, but I feel that every day I try to write about something that will either increase my knowledge or directly result in financial gain. Staring at my credit score every day does neither of those things. But I can definitely admit that I’m also abnormal 🙂
@ Naveen & Ken,
The reason a direct translation may not work is that the score is a logarithmic function, e.g. a score of 800 is not 33% less risky than a score of 600 (200/600). Also, all scores are proprietary and we cannot assume that each score uses the same (or even a similar) logarithmic scale.
We are trying to address this by reducing all scores to their lowest common denominator, the default risk probability. All scores, no matter the brand or the bureau, have an associated risk probability. In my credit card days we would calculate the risk probability anytime we evaluated a new score.
Right now our biggest hurdle is determining what we can legally publish. Please be patient – we are as eager to provide answers as you are to receive them
Checking your fico every day is sort of redundant and unnecessary dont you thing? Isnt that what credit alerts are for? That way you are not logging in and checking your score for no apparent reason. Credit cards only report once a month, along with most other debts. Monitors should be setup for identity theft reasons but other than that there really isn’t a reason to check your score all the time.
Jonathan – Credit score is an indirect factor of building financial gain. Its also a good indicator of your personal strengths and weaknesses as well. That is unless you have a lot of positive debt, which is a different story.
my 2 cents
My question is how different are the FICO scores usually from the three bureaus? If 15 points is normal, then it seems that Credit Karma seems to be accurate. I haven’t checked my credit report in a while, but they were the same a couple years ago.
WaMu FICO credit score (only TransUnion) as of 01/01/08: 805
CreidtKarma as of 01/29/08: 834
Score math option A:
805/850 = 94.7%
834/900 = 92.7%
Score math option B:
((834-300)*.92)+300 = 791
I do like my TransUnion 805 better than the converted 791. But this could be indicative of the place Credit Karma pulled the data rather than the algorithm. I would like to see where (which bureau) the data is coming from.
Jonathan, thanks for the post. I wonder how many new users they got b/c of you.
CK Founder – I am not arguing that a score of 800 is 33% less risky than a score of 600. I understand that the default risk increases dramatically as scores decline linearly. What I am saying is that given the same actuarial credit data, the scores that your system and FICO report should have a strong correlation. The exact conversion factor between the two systems is 11/12.
That is, for anyone who wants to check what the “FICO Translation” of their CK score would be, you need to:
1. Subtract 300 points from your CK score.
2. Multiply the result by 11/12.
3. Add 300 points to this result.
Then why does CK show me at 683 but my real EQ FICO score is 708? And none of my true scores are under 700.
I have 0% utilization on credit cards so my scores rarely jump up/down.
Something still is accounting for the difference.
saladdin
I’ve always made the association of FICO score with applying for a mortgage and that FICO was roughly an average of your credit scores. I used the more general term “credit score” with applying for credit from banks and other private insitutions. I’ve never intertwined the two. A matter of semantics but it didn’t sound right to me the way these posts referred to their credit score as their FICO score. This is what I found on Wiki:
“FICO is a credit score developed by Fair Isaac & Co. It is used by many mortgage lenders that use a risk-based system to determine the possibility that the borrower may default on financial obligations to the mortgage lender. The credit bureaus all have FICO alternatives: Equifax’s ScorePower, Experian’s PLUS score, and TransUnion’s Credit score.”
So you wouldn’t call your Equifax, TransUnion, or Experian scores a FICO score. Like I said, maybe just semantics but thought you should know.
I don’t see the point in giving out my personal info for this service just to monitor a credit score that no one knows for sure how its calculated. Add to the fact that lenders are using this score and I just don’t see the point.
Now, maybe if I was really anal I would do this and watch to see for ups and downs but I think using your free credit reports and monitoring fico scores from time to time will do the trick.
Suresh – You’re absolutely right about that. It’s come to be known as a synonym for a credit score, when it isn’t.
@Suresh – Thanks for your input. However, I am curious why my WaMu account specifically says FICO score, but also says data is only from TransUnion. I wonder if they are misrepresenting the data they are actually displaying.
Michelle – It could be a misrepresentation. “FICO” is becoming part of the everyday lexicon when talking about credit scores, and maybe WaMu recognizes that people right away recognize FICO to be associated with their credit score, albeit incorrectly. The best way to find out is to ask a WaMu representative to explain their use of FICO in your particular situation.
FICO is simply a proprietary formula based on up your credit report data.
Data -> FICO Formula -> FICO Score
We each have 3 reports from different major credit bureaus.
3 different sets of data -> 3 different FICO scores
All the other scores just make their own formulas based on their own info like default rates and payment behavior.
Like Jonathan said, FICO is just a scoring algorithm. The data still must come from one of the three bureaus.
Like Kleenex and Walkman are a brand of tissues and tape players, FICO is a brand of credit scores. There are many alternatives for FICO score that serve the same purpose.
The commonality is that all credit scores must be computed from credit data and therefore derived from one of the three bureaus.
I tried it. Gave me a score of 908. What the…? I thought max was 900.
I sort of retired 6 years ago and moved overseas, have almost zero income, zero debt, practically no economic activity at all, although I still have a couple of credit cards that I rarely use that have high limits. So I guess I’m a credit superstar!
Hey, can I still rent my credit rating through one of those outfits you talked about a while ago? Or did they shut that down?
883… it’s no 908 (breaking the rating barrier) but yeah… guess that makes the scores a bit iffy.
When they start adding in more feature such as letting you know where the scores are coming from, when they’re pulling it.. then I guess it’ll be easier to sort of compare and contrast.
One thing I do worry about monitoring services is that if you do check daily (or they automatically pull daily), then you’ll easily clutter up your report with way too many inquiry… pretty messy to sort through.
CK Founder, I have a question. I just pulled my Creditkarma score. It said 852. My WAMU FICO score was 627. How can there possibly be this big of a gap?
@jamaraz.
That large of a gap is probably a discrepancy with the bueaus and not the score. I would suggest you use annualcreditreport to compare the two bureaus reports.
We use TU, you should check what Wamu uses.
CK Founder, WAMU also uses TU. I also had a 3 in 1 pulled in november and my scores were all roughly in the low 600’s.
890 (*blush*)
Liked some of the offers at the bottom, might take advantage of them sometime. Glad to know my credit hasn’t suffered due to me neglecting to check it recently.
Thanks for the site.
LOL, you’re funny investing so much thought into this.
My guess is that the real reason the the score range is different is that CK Founder is well aware of the fact that FICO is suing the three CRA’s and VantageScore Solutions and that one of the complaints is that they are trading off their trademarked range of 300-850.
If CK tried using 300-850 they’d get a demand letter from FICO. They may still get a letter given the fact that FICO has certainly seen this tool and the range is still heavily “FICO-ish.”
CK, my guess is that you’ll have to eventually answer the question (possibly under oath at a deposition)… “why did you choose 300-900 since you can scale a credit score to anything you want…A-Z, 1-10, 1-1000, etc.” That question will be hard to answer.
Stop trying to figure what the CK score means in the FICO world. It can’t be done. Two models, two sets of scorecards, different classing, different weights, probably similar characteristics but not exact, and certainly different variables.
I’m intrigued, why free? Free forever or free till we’re hooked?
Take care guys.
To CK Founder:
I too am having problems in receiving the confirmation email. It’s been a few days since I signed up and and tried having it resent to me several times, but still nothing. It’s not in my inbox, junk folder or bulk folder. I just have not gotten the confirmation email so I can’t complete the registration process.
It also doesn’t appear to have any “contact us” area on your website, so if we’re having problems accessing the site, how can anyone help us??
~Victoria
@ everyone
If you want to know the distribution and your ranking please use this link:
https://www.creditkarma.com/compare
It will provide the national distribution, your percentile, and the CK percentile. You will need to log on since the page compares your score against the mean.
@ Victoria, please email help@creditkarma.com for any technical issues.
All what i wanna know is that if it is really free? or would I be charged after kindof free period without being noticed or just with some tiny words put in the terms?
Re: CK Founder, I have a question. I just pulled my Creditkarma score. It said 852. My WAMU FICO score was 627. How can there possibly be this big of a gap?
I have a surprise too: last week I checked Creditkarma my score was 776, today I checked again and it becames 675. During this week, I just paid all my credit card bill. Don’t know what happens.
wow, why was this made so complicated? why didnt you simply emulate fico and use a 300-850 range? why do we have to have a chart explaining to us the difference? why should I sign up for something that only works based on your own numbers (i.e. no one will ever pull my CK score and say, “hmm, he looks good. give him a loan.”)?
sounds like someone didn’t think this one out. I would have signed up and really got into it, but I feel like the score is fake, useless, and just a company trying to “compete” against FICO and make a buck. No Thank You.
Dear CK founder,
I would like to unsubscribe from CK as I do not find it useful (it is showing my scores 50 to 60 points higher than the real scores).
I looked up on the website but could not find any way to unsubscribe/cancel my subscription.
The reason I want to cancel is because another credit monitoring service would not let me register with them as long as I am subscribed with your service.
Thanks
@RB: The site’s terms state the following:
… If you want to terminate your legal Agreement with Credit Karma, you may do so by (a) notifying Credit Karma at any time and (b) opting out of “Receive updates in my account and my credit score” and “Receive special offers from Credit Karma” in the Contact Preferences section of your Account on Credit Karma. Your notice should be sent, in writing, to Credit Karma address at 577 Howard Street, 4th Floor, San Francisco, California 94105 and include your name, date of birth, and email address for your Credit Karma account…
They did a hard pull of my credit report when i requested just the free trial. FYI
Frankly, I have no idea what the hell you guys are talking about. I got a ck score and then looked at the chart and it was 300-850. Frankly, I don’t know. All I know is that I can’t find anything with 150-900 scale. I noticed you were all talking about FICO scores and I assume that is with respect to mortgages typically; perhaps that’s it. From the frequently asked section it says they don’t calculate or maintain the scores; they simply retrieve them from one of the credit bureaus. So, evidently, according to the faqs, the score you got, is the score directly from the bureau they pulled it from, nothing more, nothing less. All the calculations above aren’t necessary. But, that’s just based on what the faqs say and the fact that I can’t find anything talking about 150-900 anywhere in my dash. I looked in the comparison section and in the national portion, it was a range of 300-850.
CK changed their score range from a scale to 900 to match the usual FICO scale to 850 a few months back. It’s still not an official “FICO” score, but it should be close.
Ok, so– it is official as far as i’m concerned. CK scoring is useless. CK pulled transunion and scored it 700. I went to the car dealership the next day and they pulled the transunion score. It was 738. I’m done with CK; its just a cute toy, but has no use.
A friend of mine told me about CK today, so I signed up and it told me my score was 740.
From what I’ve read in the comments (though I skipped several towards the end) it appears that most people are getting CK scores that are HIGHER than their real scores (if known).
I’m in the process of re-financing my house. I asked my lender to tell me the scores he got from all three bureaus, and the lowest of the three was about 40 points higher than the CK score. The highest of the three was more than 50 points higher than the CK score.
It looks like CK could be useful to track movement in your scores, but I’m not going to rely on the actual number it spits out just yet.
I read about Credit Karma today. I just signed on with my email address. However, when asked for my DOB and Social Security number, I was a bit hesitant because although it had the “https” on its website, it did not have the padlock at the bottom. How secure is this site? I’d appreciate your advice.
I know this thread is long dead, but I’m posting anyway: Just wondering about the functionality of the “Credit Simulator”. I can’t seem to get any events to actually change my simulated credit score. The only event that seems to impact it is bankruptcy, and according to CK, that RAISES it 6 points : ) I’d like to think I’m not doing THAT bad…..thoughts?
OK, I have just PROVEN CreditKarma to be deeply flawed. Here’s how:
1. A month ago, I pulled my annual three-bureau report, and paid for the accompanying scores. All ranged between 701 and 708. CreditKarma? 697. Okay, not far off – but wait, there’s more.
2. On my reports, I discovered an incorrect derogatory item from a phone company. A few phone calls, and they confirmed that the error would be removed.
3. So, time to check credit again after a few days. Let’s see CK first. Sure enough, my score had rocketed up on CK to a much better-looking 768, following correction of the error. Woohoo!
4. But just to be sure, I then also paid $14.95 and signed up for ID Guard, who provide actual daily scores from the actual bureaus. And here’s the reality: While CK gives me 768, Experian, Equifax and TransUnion score me 726, 733 and 746 respectively.
5. Case closed. CK is wildly inaccurate, with a score 21 points higher than the highest real bureau score AT THE SAME TIME. Like most free things in life, too good to be true…
I signed up today and my CK score was actually very close to my 2-months old TransUnion score. But credit simulator needs a lot of work. According to it after foreclosure AND bankruptcy my CK score will decrease by only 20 points 🙂
CK score = 788. Experian Vantage score = 990 (501 – 990 scale). I think I’ll take the Experian score. My credit score has always been in the top 1% for the at least the last 10 years. Personally, I wouldn’t trust the CK score.
I had a Wamu card that gave me monthly credit scores, a very nice feature for ensuring at a glance that nothing is amiss. They even emailed you if your score changed more than 20 points.
Over a period of two years my score was in the range 817 to 844, usually the higher scores were from Experian, lower ones from TransUnion. (It actually reported 855 one month, but I assume that was an error).
I signed up for CreditKarma and it reports 783. I find it hard to believe that’s accurate, since nothing has changed in my credit history other than Wamu canceling that card for non-use (after Chase bought them).
Too bad there’s no longer a credit card with the free score feature–they would certainly get my business.
Read through all of the comments and went ahead out of curiosity. My Karma score is about 20 points LOWER than my real credit score from last month, probably because they have my oldest account as 1 year+9 months, which is about 9 years off.
Without the details of a credit report to verify what information they’re using to calculate the score, I’d say it’s pretty useless. But now they have my email address and SSN so good for them.
I love CK! While the score may not be completely accurate, it still gives you an idea of whether your score is going up or down. Personally, I don’t need to know exactly what my score is; I only need to know that it is improving. I’m so glad there is a free service available to chart my progress. I would hate to buy my score every month or two… talk about expensive!
It would be nice to know exactly where I stand, but it’s not necessary for me at this point, so I’m grateful for CreditKarma. 🙂
Lolz..I read through the discussion posts and I wonder why do people borrow and lend money. Be happy with what you have…I guess enough for food, water, shelter and endurance! No borrowing, no lending, no credit scores and no credit reports. Save all the energy in discovering the true meaning of life (-: (-: Thought I should comment coz i see people getting restless over their scores (-:
@rockxy
I’m pretty sure you’re somewhere around 14~15. No older than 18; not old enough to be independent and have your own responsibilities, right? Know what you’re talking about before you make such a condescending comment.
I don’t know, I got the same score of 678 from CK and MYFICO.com. I can even provide a screen shot of this (I had a myfico 30 day trial thing going on).
Tried Credit Karma but found out it wasn’t for me. So I decided to close my account.
Unfortunately, you can only reach them by email. And even after I sent multiple emails earlier this week — they have yet to send a response.
Now, I’m worried about the integrity of this company. They said they won’t store our personal information but I have to question their honesty.
Does anyone know any other recourse available? Start contacting the better business authorities?
Z, what you need to do to cancel your account with them is described in the “terms of service” on their website. I will copy and paste the relevant sections from it for you below.
It’s in legalese and sounds suspiciously smarmy, somehow.
Burying this kind of basic information (how to close an account) in an out-of-the-way place on the website raises a red flag to me.
Also, I think it’s ridiculous for a company which allows online sign-up for an account to require written termination of the account via the postal system.
It seems that they keep a copy of one’s credit report in their records. I wonder if “terminating” the “legal agreement” with them means that they will continue to keep one’s credit report in their records or not. I would guess that they keep it forever, which I am not happy about.
I was stupid to sign up for this thing – I did it based on a recommendation at a different financial advice website. It was only belatedly that I began to question why I gave them my full trust and my private financial information and social security number, in exchange for a fake credit score that doesn’t help me in the slightest.
From their “Terms of Service”:
“I further understand that by submitting this registration form I am authorizing Credit Karma, once it has obtained my credit report and score for me, to retain a copy of such credit report and score in its records along with the other information I am submitting through this registration form….”
“The following provisions of this Agreement shall survive termination of your use or access to the Site: Disclaimer of Warranties, Limitation of Liability, Governing Law and Dispute Resolution, Waiver, Indemnification, General Provisions, and any other provision that by its terms survives termination of your use or access to the Site, the Content, and/or the Products.”
This is how to terminate the agreement:
“If you want to terminate your legal Agreement with Credit Karma, you may do so by (a) notifying Credit Karma at any time and (b) opting out of “Receive updates in my account and my credit score” and “Receive special offers from Credit Karma” in the Contact Preferences section of your Account on Credit Karma. Your notice should be sent, in writing, to Credit Karma address at at 27 South Park, Suite 101, San Francisco, CA 94107 and include your name, date of birth, and email address for your Credit Karma account.”
I just happened to read their user agreement and it’s not clear how exactaly they will use your personal information. What is sure is that they WILL give it to their advertisment people and they WILL RETAIN It even AFTER your agreement has been terminated, aka-you delete your account. The right of survivorship clauses are simply bullshit. There are so many clauses in that contract that are unconscionable to say the least. Nobody in their right mind would sign a contract like that unless they had to, to save their lives. I mean, seriously.